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Thread: Assembler programming

  1. #1
    book
    Guest

    Assembler programming

    Hi. I know a bit about assembler now, but I still don't know how you actually start writing executables in it - I mean, is there a popular IDE, a development environment, something...........? What tools can I use?
    I promise that I have read the FAQ and tried to use the Search to answer my question.

  2. #2
    It would appear that you have not actually spent much time THINKING about this subject or doing any basic research on your own issue. For example how about taking an obvious phrase, such as:

    writing executables in asm (and/or) assembly language programming

    putting them in your favorite search engine and reading some of the links you will find. This is something you are supposed to do here before asking a question and this is WHY it is written under your signature!

    Here's another hint: you might want to check out "masm" with your favorite search engine. It is one of the development environments for programming in asm. There are several other well discussed ones which you should come across using the two search criteria I already gave you.

    Among the resources your will eventually come across is a primer titled:

    The Art of Assembly Language Programming

    which you can also google and which will describe some of the basics.

    You have alot of work ahead of you. The sooner you start, the faster your will make some progress.

    Regards,
    JMI

  3. #3
    Naides is Nobody
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    Nice to see you around book

  4. #4
    book
    Guest
    Hi Nadies (do i Know you? )

    @JMI - I resent that! I'm not a complete idiot, uh. I know about the Art of Assembley book, obviously, and I know a bit of assembler(haven't ever applied it though). I have looked quite a few things, and eventually gave up. They all seemed either:
    1. Outdated.
    2. Freeware rubbish
    3. Overly complicated

    Are there commercial programs? ides that are relatively new? anything particularly powerful, like it would give you complete control over p.e. header & segments? What do the pros use?
    Last edited by book; March 10th, 2006 at 00:14.
    I promise that I have read the FAQ and tried to use the Search to answer my question.

  5. #5
    An assembler, of course. TASM 2.5 is rather nice. As you've mentioned, many aslr's are overly complicated, but what I do is wrap my code in standard headers and footers and then give that file to the aslr.

    The AoA book is *not*, contrary to what it claims to be, about real Asm. If you've worked with real Asm for a long time, you will know what I mean.

    "What do the pros use?" Aslr's that they have themselves written

    It is also a very good exercise in Asm to *write* an aslr in Asm.

  6. #6
    book:

    It bothers me not in the slightest that you resent my doing my job. If you don't want to be reminded about searching, simply say what you have actually done to help yourself. My crystal ball was a little cloudy and I could not determine you had done anything to help yourself before you Posted.

    No one suggested you were "a complete idiot" except you! If you can't tolerate a simple reminder of the Rules when your Post does not indicate you followed them, perhaps you should consider getting out of the kitchen. Since your Post indicated no effort and no knowledge, I gave you a reminder and a direction to start.

    Whether you like it or not, or approve or not, that is my job and I shall continue to do it as I see it.

    Regards,
    JMI

  7. #7
    oby1
    Guest
    This guy is thinking that:
    - AoA is outdated
    -Iczlion tutorials are outdated
    -MASM 9.2 is outdated
    -Gosam is aoudated
    -FASM 32 bits and 64 bits is oudated
    - surely TASM 5.3 are oudated
    -coultless tutorials om MASM32 and Win32ASm and FASM bord are all outdated esp the ones about OOP design paterns , simplicty, speed andfull controll

    The IDEs like RadASM with code folding and instant forward and back in code tree is outdate and probably freeware rubish besides it was updated yesterday and this clearly makes it oudated since is not from today...

    Same goes for WinASM, ASM studio and other IDEs

    Besides i am sure that SolarOS full GUI 32bit ASM os under GPL is freeware rubish Also Menuet32 and Menuet64 bits are freeware rubish DexOS also

    I guess he has found some Tasm 1.0 IDE for DOS 2.0 and some samples using int 10 and mov bx, es mov dx,es and now he is checking the advanced programming in 320x240 CGA/VGA on S3 trion 3D chipset because...

    DirectX and Direct3d tutorials of Scronty and Hostile Encounter DirectX Win32 full ASM game is clearely outdated ....

    The man clearely knows what he is saying and as every newbie out there he always knows better because he has read some tutorials on dc++ ... directly from the masters of course...

    Sorry that this had to be my frst post here... but there are many "outdated" hints inside...
    I promise that I have read the FAQ and tried to use the Search to answer my question.

  8. #8
    book
    Guest
    @JMI - God, this sort of stuff ruins forums....im not offended....can we get on with our lives..........

    @oby1 - Your an idiot.
    My point was - All I could find were a bunch of pokey, out-dated looking websites for assemblers that looked as if they started off as someones personal project(not to hold that against them). Hard to use(gave up on radasm), old fashioned, and about 10 years old. I assumed I must be poking around the edges and missing the good stuff - There must be some popular commercial title somewhere right? Obviously not.

    I'm sure your a nice guy in real life.
    Last edited by book; March 10th, 2006 at 04:27.
    I promise that I have read the FAQ and tried to use the Search to answer my question.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by book
    ... God, this sort of stuff ruins forums ... Your an idiot ...


    book, please try not to take our members' impatience as a personal attack. Although the posts may be tinged with sarcasm, you've actually been given a lot of useful information already.

    A fact of the matter is that most assembly languages are pretty old and are bound to working on existing hardware that is used all over the world. A consequence of this is that standards have to be adhered to and so ASM is by-and-large very static. A tutorial that is ten years old will contain 90% useful information. The remaining ten percent pertains to the details of modern CPU architecture and will, no matter who writes it, appear 'overly complicated' to anybody who isn't familiar with the basics.
    My point is that you'd be hard-pushed to find an ASM tutorial or reference guide that is out of date.

    As for an assembler, you've been pointed to MASM. This is the number one choice for Win32 programmers. If you specify a platform, perhaps we can give more inspired suggestions. All you're left with now is to find an IDE that suits you. I personally like WinASM Studio. Try it out. If you don't like it, take a trip down to Iczelion's site and check out his links section.

    Finally, the best way to learn is to go into the deep end. I'd be the first to admit that I'm guilty of wasting hours and hours trying to find the 'best' tools for a task I've been set when I actually should be finding something adequate and getting my head down. Doing things the fast way will invariably lead you to the best tools as you find imperfections in your current arsenal and as you mingle with the societies. You'll also appreicate an upgrade far more if you've spent the last few months using something less 'perfect'.

    As an aside, I want to know who was responsible for popularising the term 'assembler' to mean 'assembly'. If I ever do find out, and if he/she is still alive I think I'll make it my mission to personally do them some damage .

    Regards
    Admiral

  10. #10
    book,

    I recommend to try to think in a way that not the outer form, ie the look of "things" is important - it's important what's inside

    you will find that probably the better the content is - the more "uncommercially" ie websites look. the ones with the most fancy animations and big advertisments are usually worst

    so keep on reading when you on an iczellions site, maaaan

    regards, 0xf001

  11. #11
    book
    Guest
    Thanks for the replies. And thanks for bearing with me, I generally attract a lot of irritated people by not being very clear it seems. I guess I will try and ignore age/appearance of this stuff more often, its just hard coming from a background of java/c++ not to look for up-to-date tools. And actually, I have come across a LOT of out of date content, so yeah, its a bit irritating.

    I guess you answered my question. But to be honest it would have been sort of .......reassuring .......... to find out about a large scale, new program by people like borland/microsoft etc.
    I promise that I have read the FAQ and tried to use the Search to answer my question.

  12. #12
    Hi

    Just wanted to add my 2 cents to the flame war (so seldom I get the chance). JK.

    Anyway, here's the point: machine code is as low as you can go. Asm is just a representation of machine code. There's no way for anyone who doesn't design hardware to actually improve upon assembly. Hence, you can only make so many IDEs before it becomes trivial - given a thousand different text editors, how would you go about making a new and better one that would knock all the others off the shelf?
    But that's not the real reason no big software company will do a major asm product. The real reason is, that asm isn't used by most programmers. Hence, the market for producing IDEs for asm is quite small. Add to that fact, that there are already quite a few IDEs available freely.

    But actually, the fact that asm hasn't changed a whole heap (the basics, anyway) is not a bad thing, quite the contrary. Being away from my normal computer, I do small asm stuff using notepad, masm, and the build.bat modified to run easier. Actually, that's not a whole lot more minimalistic than what I otherwise do: UltraEdit and masm32. Plus, from time to time some resource prog/hacker. And ollydbg for debugging.
    I guess the central question is: why do you go for asm? For me it's the simplicity, the minimalism. If I wanted big and shiny, I'd go for something a lot different.

    Fake

    Ps. Justification for writing this: notes on how to go minimalistic. Apart from notepad and masm32, all you really need to do win32asm is the platform sdk (browse it online, don't even have to download, although that is nicer) and ... well, examples like those found in the masm32 package.

  13. #13
    1 vote here for RadASM and MASM. And where would we be without Olly?

    If the same number of people who write in C++ on a daily basis also wrote in ASM, we'd have tons of pretty web sites and correctly spelled tutorials and IDE's that link up with Microsofts dedicated MASM web sites. We'd have the latest DX and D3D APIs released in .INC form, and they would be supported, and CLR and IL would be religated back to nightmare status.

    But then there's reality. Most people who think of themself as a programmer get all panic'y when they see the likes of MOVDQA. They have no desire to polute their universe with the machanics of the way things work. Hell, a great deal of them don't know how to deal with pointers, and couldn't tell a tag line from a page alias table. And yes, they take themselfs seriously.

    So, if you want a well written and correctly spelled tutorial, or a fancy web site complete with a FLASH UI, or a wicked IDE that's always up to date, I think you best get busy.

    Most of the people who DO use ASM don't really have the time, so I think it's up to you.

    I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by book
    Thanks for the replies. And thanks for bearing with me, I generally attract a lot of irritated people by not being very clear it seems. I guess I will try and ignore age/appearance of this stuff more often, its just hard coming from a background of java/c++ not to look for up-to-date tools. And actually, I have come across a LOT of out of date content, so yeah, its a bit irritating.

    I guess you answered my question. But to be honest it would have been sort of .......reassuring .......... to find out about a large scale, new program by people like borland/microsoft etc.
    Actually, with Asm I've found that the older the material is, the better. This is because the Asm community has experienced a decline over the last decade, so the newest material that you find will not be as insightful or as of much benefit as something e.g. 10 years older. Knowledge has been lost throughout time. For example, I have some Asm literature with source code from the early 1980s, and reading through the source code is like reading an engaging novel. The coders back then knew all the special tricks which made Asm enjoyable. Now, the source code mostly seems boring and unimaginative. It's as if the programmers are getting more and more stupid.

    If you come from a background of Java/C++ or any other HLL, you will find Asm *very* different from what you're used to. As I've told countless others before, forget everything you ever knew about programming if you want to truly make the most out of the Asm language. The ways of thinking which are involved are so different that attempting to think of it in a high-level sort of manner will impede your understanding and thus your code will be no better than that emitted by a compiler. It is to write better and more efficient code that we learn Asm for.

    Quote Originally Posted by book
    There must be some popular commercial title somewhere right?
    Finally, one of the principles of Asm that you must keep in mind is that it's anti-commercialistic. It's against the commercial trend of progressing toward less and less efficient, higher and higher level languages. To quote one of the Asm Introduction lectures I have given,
    [It is]...an expression of freedom, against strict "structured" programming. It is to show the rest of them: "This is how software should be written. This is the true power of the machine. This is how small and fast software should be."
    By choosing Asm, you are showing your defiance of "currently accepted" programming methods and your desire to write better software.

    I think I've said enough. As you can probably see by now, I'm one of the few Asm coders left that still believe in the old ideals

    Good luck... and may the power of Asm be with you someday

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LLXX
    Finally, one of the principles of Asm that you must keep in mind is that it's anti-commercialistic. It's against the commercial trend of progressing toward less and less efficient, higher and higher level languages. To quote one of the Asm Introduction lectures I have given,
    By choosing Asm, you are showing your defiance of "currently accepted" programming methods and your desire to write better software.

    I think I've said enough. As you can probably see by now, I'm one of the few Asm coders left that still believe in the old ideals

    Good luck... and may the power of Asm be with you someday
    Different folks, different strokes, I guess. However, just one point: asm is NOT and ideal, it's NOT a political or economical belief, it's a programming language. Whatever you choose to do with it is your own business, as with any other language. Choosing asm does NOT mean showing your support for anti-commercialistic ideas - it merely shows you're choosing a programming language.
    That said, choosing asm is definately one way of displaying attitudes towards the the world of computing today. Not too long ago, a friend of mine highly recommended programming in a .net environment to me. Development was so much faster, he said. And then admitted: but ofcourse everybody who wants to run your stuff needs the .net files. Going asm is one way to show that you really don't care for that kind of dependency.

    Fake

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